tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4281789906349841218.post5493205344770466447..comments2023-10-22T12:01:32.633-04:00Comments on The Lurking Canary: :: Boycott the DNCBuffyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14901971975109018287noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4281789906349841218.post-45325724377073658102008-07-23T01:35:00.000-04:002008-07-23T01:35:00.000-04:00Ciccina:To get the Obama v Clinton issue out of th...Ciccina:<BR/>To get the Obama v Clinton issue out of the way - you still haven't shown that Obama benefited from "rampant sexism." True, that might be something hard to prove; but Clinton might have actually benefited from "iron my shirt" as she won NH the next day. Still, this is likely something on which we will have to agree to disagree.<BR/><BR/>I read the ABC post; as well as Lynda Waddington's touching story. Obama's comments to <I>Relevant</I> do appear at worst calculated, and at best, off-the-cuff and abbreviated. His "blues" comment paints for me a caricature that is unreal, as you point out.<BR/><BR/>As for the fatal congenital defect cases. It appears from Waddington's story that the mother's physical health would be threatened, as the defect is fatal and means the fetus would die in-utero; that surely is covered as an exemption. As for Proud Pagan, her experience was horrific; but at a cold logical level, perhaps she should have gone to another doctor, like Waddington did (though yes, she apparently had to go to 5 ob-gyns).<BR/><BR/>As for Waddington's other statements about Obama's plan - not sure where she got the "does not allow parents to decide when other children learn", while "would not have an option to terminate" may not be true as the physical health exemption might apply. Then again, I may be on shaky ground here - Obama's "Women's issues" page does not go into detail.<BR/><BR/>This of course is a serious issue, and something you and other folk should pressure Obama on.<BR/><BR/>Not sure if this is a real post, but:<BR/>http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/07/obama_mental_distress_shouldnt.php#comment-2949169<BR/><BR/>Finally, Obama has always been a centrist rather than a flaming left-wing, anti-all-war liberal. So he <I>will have</I> positions many Dems don't agree with. That's where Congressional checks-and-balances come in...RShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09380182761372599473noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4281789906349841218.post-83165881745641175552008-07-22T15:13:00.000-04:002008-07-22T15:13:00.000-04:00... and note especially the comment to the above ...... and note especially the comment to the above post here:<BR/><BR/>http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2008/07/08/obamas-late-term-abortion-comments-ignore-stark-realities#comment-5875<BR/><BR/>While this woman's situation was first trimester, the principle is the same - her situation wouldn't have fit a physical or mental health exception as defined by Obama. But surely you wouldn't support having her go through what she went through because of that awful doc.<BR/><BR/>And what the nurse did to help her - risking her job and probably license to relieve her suffering? That's the situation a lot of nurses and docs would be in under the framework Obama described.Nina Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07411919366541020475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4281789906349841218.post-30646232000191146852008-07-22T15:04:00.000-04:002008-07-22T15:04:00.000-04:00RS - this link is to a post by a woman who had a l...RS - this link is to a post by a woman who had a late term procedure; it sums up the situation very well.<BR/><BR/>http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2008/07/08/obamas-late-term-abortion-comments-ignore-stark-realitiesNina Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07411919366541020475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4281789906349841218.post-29139692300900747442008-07-22T14:41:00.000-04:002008-07-22T14:41:00.000-04:00Hello, RS! I hope all is well.One can't prove tha...Hello, RS! I hope all is well.<BR/><BR/>One can't prove than any candidate won by any single factor. Believe me, I've worked for PACs that have spent beaucoup d'argent trying to prove through elaborate benchmark polling - with callback panels and comparisons of samples taken from districts where the PAC ran ads to districts where the PAC did not run ads, etc - that it was *their* issue that made the difference. Ad while we sometimes found good evidence that our issue and advertising had an impact, really you can never boil something this complex down to one factor. <BR/><BR/>The criticism I make is that Obama benefited from rampant sexism and never did he - or the DNC - do anything to quell it. He benefited from it, and occasionally stoked it. But never did he disown it, make a speech condemning it, etc, not even obliquely. <BR/><BR/>So there's that.<BR/><BR/>As for the mental health exception, we've used some shorthand here. The mental health exception is a more complex issue than it appears on the surface. For good context, I would read this:<BR/><BR/>http://blogs.abcnews.com/legalities/2008/07/obama-sounding.html<BR/><BR/>This is where Obama's language about "defined rigorously" or "serious clinical mental-health diseases" is a problem:<BR/><BR/>One of the main reasons for having a late term abortion is the occurrence of a serious, fatal congenital defect. The ones you hear about the most are fetuses that develop with the brain partially or entirely outside the skull. I'm no doctor, but my understanding is that this is sometimes only detected pretty late in the game. <BR/><BR/>The woman carrying this doomed fetus doesn't experience an immediate threat to her physical health because the fetus is alive (there's only a threat if there's fetal death). Likewise, while she is deeply upset, its unlikely that she's suffering from clinical depression or any other serious mental health disease. So in Obama's construct, this woman cannot have a late term abortion. She would have to carry the doomed fetus another two or three months until the time of natural birth. No ob-gyn would risk aborting earlier because the penalties for breaking the various proposed late term bans are quite serious.<BR/><BR/>This may sound hypothetical or extreme, but in fact major birth defects are the reason for most late term procedures. <BR/><BR/>I'll try to find you a link or two on this. But I warn you, its some of the most depressing stuff you'll ever read. These are wanted babies, and the parents and families are usually well on their way to setting up their nurseries, etc.<BR/><BR/>And that's why the rhetoric about late term promulgated by the right-wing and adopted by Obama ("feeling blue") is so venal. Read but one case study and you'll understand that these parents go through sheer hell. No one gets a late term procedure because she "feels blue." There's no difference between that construct and Reagan's "welfare queen" construct in the eighties, which was used to trivialize the plight of impoverished women and children.<BR/><BR/>Stuff like this... well, everyone has a right to their opinion, but when the issue has to do with people's very lives, it behooves all of us to do some research before forming a strongly held viewpoint. I know you'll look into this a little further, RS - its one of the things I like about you.<BR/><BR/>Cheers,<BR/><BR/>C.Nina Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07411919366541020475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4281789906349841218.post-9238635366742788132008-07-21T23:44:00.000-04:002008-07-21T23:44:00.000-04:00Ciccina:OK, seriously - prove that Obama won due t...Ciccina:<BR/><BR/>OK, seriously - prove that Obama won due to rampant sexism against Senator Clinton. Sure, there was sexism in the media talking heads. But did that sway votes?<BR/>You know my answer. If Senator Clinton had been smarter and a better manager (hiring/firing people based on competence rather than loyalty like W.), she might have had a chance. The difference in delegate count could easily have been reversed, or at least tied, and then Senator Clinton's "experience" (yes, in quotes) would have carried the day.<BR/><BR/>As for a "critical aspect" of Roe. I assume you mean the "mental distress" comments Obama made. I was shocked too, until I learnt he meant "just feeling blue" does not count, but real mental illnesses do. But I guess you can twist his words to fit your storyline. Or maybe you really want women to be able to get abortions anytime they want, for any flimsy reason whatsoever?<BR/><BR/>Dissent is one thing. Yes, keep the pressure on the Democratic nominee to do the things you want done on the issues. But making issues separate from governance - like helping retire Clinton's debts to Mark Penn, or making her the VP despite her demonstrated failures with universal health care and her own Presidential campaign, even though other excellent choices abound - that's blackmail.RShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09380182761372599473noreply@blogger.com